People arguing

This discussion was created from comments split from: Musikmesse 2015 News.

Personally, I think this could help usher in a new era of an already booming market. The possibility of unpredictability being introduced into a bland, stale, stagnant, repetitive music industry is exciting. It is easy to forget though that most of the general music public either know nothing of Eurorack (or modular for that matter) or very little because we breathe, eat and sleep modular every day. I hope this will excite they youth to actually try to “create” music. I think a lot of creativity has been lost on the Ableton generation. I’m not bashing Ableton users, but rather the concepts behind it. Everything is laid out in a grid and there’s really nothing that can be done wrong. It’ll be good to see hands turning knobs, pushing faders and pluging in cables instead of pushing buttons and letting the computer do all of the work.

@qp No offense (or maybe a little), but that’s just bullshit. Live is a perfectly fine creative tool and certainly not some kind of “Music Construction Set” where nothing can go wrong. You’re repeating the exact same stupid “not a real instrument” critique that we heard in the 80s and 90s about synths vs. proper instruments…

@t2k you missed my point. We can agree it’s a tool and I view it as such. What I was trying to get at was seeing people work a modular setup into their workflow instead of relying on a computer and some buttons. Introduce a little anarchy. Force the performer to think outside of what’s laid out in the computer. I’m not disputing it as an instrument or not. I grew up listening to Neubauten and the like. I see everything as a musical instrument.

I’m referring to mainstream music. Not what all of us here are cooking up. I know live is used by lots in this culture but I see it mixed in with tons of other stuff.

A Synth is a real Instrument? In the end a digital Synth with a digital Filter is a Real Instrument?….
I guess what qp is aiming for is the decreasing love and passion that music gets, in former times you had to learn an instrument by hard and eventually got to compose some music, nowadays you just get ableton, throw in some pre made loops/samples/arps/whatevers into that grid, click around a bit on and off and voila - you get something that to the untrained (who takes the pain and effort learning an instrument - as above) sounds just like music. The real tragedy behind this that fewer and fewer people can appreciate gems like TOTO XIV which is brilliant in every aspect of composition, recording, engineering and playing and rather buy this sequence of sonic incidents which happens to be #1 of Germanys Charts today. Which really doesn’t matter if you declare MP3d Music thru white colored earplugs as cutting Edge sound reinforcement. Man I’m getting old.

@fcd, Yep, that’s the gist for sure.

FYI a, check your inbox!

@fcd72 Again, bullshit. Sure, you don’t have to like everything, but what you link to is still a finished song some people apparently enjoy. When was the last time you finished a track and put it out there?

I don’t think anyone deserves to act all arrogant simply because they have the disposable income to put a modular system in their basement. Especially since with the exception of a handful of excellent performers, most people still fail to produce anything even remotely interesting on their modular.

(Also, FWIW, I personally find your apparently “brilliantly produced” toto tracks exactly as boring as that OMI song. Tastes differ, etc. ;))

Who’s being arrogant? Don’t take it so personally.

By way of osmosis, all points have passed right through you.

If its not your taste, ok, but we surely can’t argue about the technical side: just listen to both of the above in Mono…. frightening what happens. I was shocked when i tried it with my phone connected to a Tivoli Audio Model One in the Kitchen, i listened to some older recordings and then switched to some top100 sampler i was forced to listen to by my nice. Go try yourselves.

But you are right, what i linked to its a full piece of Music and many people enjoy it - and the artist probably make some money from it - but its certainly more on the “Gebrauchsmusik” side and won’t be remembered in a few weeks - thats what i meant. And just because i can’t put together anything i could present without being totally ashamed because it doesn’t meet my own standards its not that i am totally clueless, right? Following the route only people that are successful in an area are allowed to criticize to the end only the most successful being would be allowed to make a statement - imagine this could be CASIO, MicroSoft or McDonalds

What i meant was the slowly vanishing Role Music plays in the life of people, and following the degrading passion and care in composition and production. Why would you put so much effort into something that won’t be recognized in the end - and just makes your “Product” more expensive. I can’t imagine anyone in my sons class listening to a whole album, theres just not enough concentration and attention anymore, music becomes more of a wallpaper than a form of art. Isn’t this something you observe, too?

Oh, and I’m looking arrogant to you not because i have a Modular in my basement (and I’m not sure if thats an instrument….) . How did you know i had to move the Studio? :wink:

And just because i exactly know you have loads of humor:

>Also, FWIW, I personally find your apparently “brilliantly produced” toto tracks exactly as boring as that OMI song.
^- see? :wink:

When i use the Term “Music” i do not mean the whole universe of Music, please read it more as “Mainstream” or “actual Charted”. Maybe now everything makes more sense to you.

Thanks for splitting before we have to make an entry here


Lol @the topic title.


This: “When i use the Term “Music” i do not mean the whole universe of Music, please read it more as “Mainstream” or “actual Charted”. Maybe now everything makes more sense to you.”

I was in high school between 90 & 94. Right in the middle of the whole grunge thing. This may not be your choice of music but it’s undeniable the amount of passion and love for music that was present then. Then, just below that was the death/grind/thrash metal surge. Along side all of this was techno being created with pawn shop 303’s and 808’s. All of it was filled with passion for the music, not bar charts and statistics that analyze the latest trends to follow. The music industry as it had been known, died in the 90’s and was replaced with homogenized music created on an assembly line rather than in a bedroom on a 4-track. (Of course the top tier of mainstream had always been created this way, but that’s a different level of music) There is a level of spontaneity and unpredictability that is missing from mainstream. As frank said, kids today don’t get the art or idea behind an “album”. It’s just about a song that doesn’t mean anything anyway. It’s just bit of soundtrack, not a focal point.

Mark Verbos touches on this topic nicely

@fcd72 No, it’s not something I observe. I think for the majority of people, music has always primarily been a simple and straightforward form of entertainment that you can put on to function as a nice background “wallpaper” to put you in the mood for whatever activity you’re primarily engaged in. I really don’t think the role of music in people’s lives has changed in any meaningful way overall.

If anything, it’s easier for people to find out more, learn to play an instrument and/or to produce music, or to find more of what they really enjoy or find interesting. It’s also easier than ever to distribute your work and get in touch with people who might enjoy it if your music is outside the mainstream.

It might be true that “The Album” as a conceptual coherent collection of songs is less important to kids these days than it used to be back when you were in high school, but it’s also important to remember that the LP was originally invented by the music industry as a way to charge a higher per-unit sales price for an artifact that had essentially the same duplication and distribution cost as a single.

And yes, I think it is arrogant to consider music made with more expensive gear inherently better. It might not have been anyone’s intention to state that, but what was stated most certainly sounded like that. :slight_smile:

t2k, in no way did I say that music on an expensive ass modular is superior. If a kid buys the system1m only, then that’s a plus in my book. Same with the ms20m. Or any of the other “cheaper” modular options. Also, it’s possible to put together a decent modular for 1k or less. Of course this is a lot of money, but when we were kids we worked the summer and saved for a guitar or amp that cost just the same. I see no difference.

My fundamental point is the passion needs to be reintroduced into the mainstream again. Get the modulars by way of Roland and Korg into the hands of major touring acts and DJ’s and the kids will take notice. They too will seek it out.

> And yes, I think it is arrogant to consider music made with more expensive gear inherently better. It > might not have been anyone’s intention to state that, but what was stated most certainly sounded
> like that. :slight_smile:

Then you got it totally wrong. You can do (if you can do it) brilliant recordings with just an old Fostex R-8 and a Behringer Console, and you can (if you can’t do it) totally fail using whatever many tracks Hifi SuperDuper Brand Recording machinery / Console / OutBoard you choose.

In the end recording Music is an art thats based on craftsmanship. And this craftsmanship isn’t valued anymore.

In fact most of the more brilliant things are made on simple equipment and the talented people doing so even get better later, with better equipment. Most modern tools (here Ableton pops up again….) that make it easy for beginners and/or not so talented people (like me) and evoke the impression you can go without that craftsmanship and just render whatever your DAW spits out to a File and call this a good sounding production.
In no way i meant to criticize any musical style or preference, I’m way to old, wise and thus looking arrogant to do so ;-). And while we are at it i hate to admit that the actual Helene Fischer Album for instance is a brilliant piece of work, although to my taste the music hurts.

Lucky for t2k he is in a social environment where Music still has its value, over here nothing of this will survive and be whitewashed with cheap white wine in stylish bottles and the most recent decoration as seen on these hi gloss magazines……but maybe (well, certainly) its just me being grumpy.

Modulars don’t have anything to do with passion. They have to do with insanity, madness, lunacy and other kinds of manic disorders.

@Frank, haha, I keep forgetting I’m always confusing my mental illnesses as passions.

I’m going to stop arguing after this, but I think it’s kinda funny that both the argument that the best work was released when you yourself were in high school as well as the argument that craftsmanship isn’t valued anymore by kids these days has been made by pretty much any previous generation about the music of the next generation ever… :slight_smile: