Clicky Braids with certain physical simulations only?

Hey there,

I just got a Braids and have to decide whether I keep it or not.
I really like the module generally, but therer is one thing I don’t understand and I already asked on muffs, but maybe I will get more answers here, so please excuse if you’ve already read this.

I hear clicks during the beginning of the waveforms of the physical simulation modes BELL, BOWD, FLUT and BLOW when using TSRC=Auto (detection of CV changes on V/Oct In and deriving a trigger from it).
Those clicks are not present when using DRUM and PLUK while TSRC=Auto.
This is independent of the setting of the Timbre potentiometer.
I already tried to get rid of it by using a slow attack VCA behind it, but then the otherwise nice attack portion of the signal is crippled. A filter behind Braids is another option, but when the filters cutoff is low enough to get rid of the click it also ruins the whole waveform.
Is this a glitch in the operation system and can/will it be corrected? For me, it unfortunately ruins the BELL, BOWD, FLUT and BLOW mode in my application.

Also the TDST=TIMB doesn’t apply an envelope to the Timbre parameter, but I guess this makes sense, since Timbre is the Decay of the waveform.

Thanks for your ideas.

EDIT: If you’re going to test it, be sure to not use the trigger input but CV to V/OCT and set TSRC=AUTO and compare it to using TSRC=EXTI with an external trigger since I’m not talking about the ‘normal’ click, but a more severe one while using TSRC=AUTO and nothing in TRIG In.

The missing bit of information: what generates the CV on V/Oct?

If your CV source has a low slew-rate, it might retrigger the model several time as the CV slowly crawls up to its final value.

Good idea! But I just tried all of my available CV generators (Rene quantized+unquantized out), uScale, Pressure Points (with and without quantizer in it’s path), Noisering, Wogglebug, Maths… it is always the same: BELL, BOWD, FLUT and BLOW click in the beginning and DRUM and PLUK don’t.
I’m confused. What is the difference between the BELL and the DRUM transient? How could one click all the time and the other be super smooth?

Gave it a try on my Braids… First, I want to make it clear that the click is not a defect or glitch in the sound. It is just what you hear when a waveform has a brutal change in amplitude.

> What is the difference between the BELL and the DRUM transient?

Looking at the code, on a trigger, the DRUM phases are not reset - while they are reset for BELL. Why is it so? BELL has many partials which can beat against each other. To make sure that the sound is consistent with itself in amplitude every time it is struck (and does not start weak and out of phase), the BELL phases are reset on each trigger. DRUM has less partials, which do not beat against each other, so there is no need to reset the phase. So less discontinuities in a DRUM attack.

Regarding the other models:

  • PLUK has a hell of a sharp discontinuity at its beginning, but because it is a “biting”, percussive sound, the discontinuity is not perceived (the high frequency content of the attack is drowned under the high harmonics of the sound itself).
  • BOWD, FLUT, BLOW do not “click at the beginning”, they click at the end - because the attack is suddenly restarted from a previously sustained sound.

For BOWD, FLUT, BLOW, a possible workaround would be to do a fade-out so that the waveform goes back to 0 before the attack restart. I did not do it in the first place because doing so would add some latency (“wait, I’m fading out the current note before processing your trigger”), and I suspect many people are using modular synths in the first place to cut latency and reaction times typical of digital/software systems. Another solution would be to fade-out the current note + immediately start a new note, but then the module would need to have the computing power to render two notes at the same time and I would have had already taken advantage of this to make everything duophonic :slight_smile:

Nice read

^- and a classic.

I just realized I left out an important part of information. My apologies.
I am using the V/OCT in to trigger the physical simulations (TSRC=Auto and nothing plugged into TRIG).

Using the TRIG input (TSRC=EXTI) to trigger the BELL and the V/OCT input to set BELLS pitch, one can hear the click that is known, expected and nicely explained by you and by the article you linked above.
What I meant however is the much more pronounced click when setting TSRC=AUTO and putting nothing into TRIG. DRUM still doesn’t click perceivably, but BELL, BOWD, FLUT and BLOW click even stronger in this mode.
I understand triggering the physical simulations by only using the V/OCT input is a relatively new feature, that is why I was asking about a correction and suspected that may be a glitch in the programming.
EDIT: I mixed this up with the internal EG which was the new feature I meant. Triggering the physical simulations by only the V/OCT input doesn’t seem to have been added in recent updates.

Aside from my issue with the more pronounced click in TSRC=AUTO mode, I noticed something while reading through the Waldorf article.

You said:
> To make sure that the sound is consistent with itself in amplitude every time it is struck (and does not start weak and out of phase), the BELL phases are reset on each trigger.

That makes sense. Now if we combine that information with this part of the above linked article:
> On Waldorf synthesizers, you can setup the oscillators so that their phases start randomly
when a new note is played. So, you never know at which level the sine wave is when you hit a note.
Consider it would be at the maximum level, you would get an immediate change from zero to maximum when the amp envelope’s attack rate is set to 0.

Since the code in BRAIDS resets the BELL phases each trigger, wouldn’t it be possible to simply start the waveform at the zero crossing in the code when a new trigger appears? That way the amplitude of the low harmonics waveform wouldn’t be cut into being somewhere that isn’t zero?

> wouldn’t it be possible to simply start the waveform at the zero crossing in the code when a new trigger appears? That way the amplitude of the low harmonics waveform wouldn’t be cut into being somewhere that isn’t zero?

resetting the phases = starting the synthesis of the waveform at zero crossings.

This creates a discontinuity because nothing guarantees that the waveform is currently at a zero-crossing, from the previous note, when the trigger appears.

The only way to solve this click problem is to wait till you have a zero-crossing or to fade before retriggering at 0. Both make your Synth slooooooooooow. Personally i prefer having a fast, snappy and possibly clicky attack.

So if theres any better Module out there that has nonclicky physical modeling Modes ill happily buy your 2nd hand Braids for a decent price - you said it clicks, right? :wink:

Ah, the waveform is depending on the waveforms that preceded the present one. Understood.

Can you tell me why the click of BELL, BOWD, FLUT and BLOW is so strong when only using V/OCT as trigger (TSRC=AUTO and only pitch CV going into V/OCT and nothing going into TRIG)?

It would be great if it would be the same non-bothersome click like the one happening when using TSRC=EXTI (a trigger into TRIG in and pitch CV into V/OCT).

Hmmm, are you testing this in comparable situations - same sequence sent to the V/Oct input, with an automatic trig, and then with a manual trig synchronized with the sequence?

Yes.

I patched it like this:

René CV out to V/OCT, TSRC=EXTI, René Gate-X out to TRIG of Braids -> acceptable and expected click

then:
René CV out to V/OCT, TSRC=AUTO, nothing in TRIG input -> much brighter and apparent click

Can’t you just use a VCA to get rid of the clicks if you don’t want them?

And yeah, I also like my synths to be clicky most of the time; I feel it adds character.

It’s the raw state of the sound, it’s up to the musician to make it behave. Guitars are very clicky and vocals are very variable in loudness too.

I’ve honestly never really noticed the clicking. I guess that comes from using an SH-101 for so long, which is about the clickiest thing on the planet. I just got used to clicks on fast attack stuff.
Will give Braids a go later and have a listen.

Every Waldorf Clicks so I’m used to it - the VS btw very nearly doesn’t click :frowning:

To the guys that joined the discussion: if you’re going to test it, be sure to not use the trigger input but CV to V/OCT and set TSRC=AUTO and compare it to using TSRC=EXTI with an external trigger since I’m not talking about the ‘normal’ click, but a more severe one while using TSRC=AUTO and nothing in TRIG In.

BTW - why don’t you just use the Trigger In?

At first I did, then I noticed this handy function (TSRC=AUTO) that was intentionally programmed by the developer to simplify patching and happily tried (to save mults and make sound creating more immediate, since I can just plug into V/OCT and switch through modes) just to find out it changes the nice BELL, BOWD, FLUT and BLOW model into a clicky one, which kind of ruins the intention behind implementing TSRC=AUTO and I thought it may be a good idea to report it in case it would be something that is easily fixed (since the BELL etc via TRIG In and TSRC=EXTI is fine as it is).

The question comes from my bad habit running Triggers virtually anywhere :wink: